Simpedia

Gordon Harvey, Australia

Gordon H (AUS)  So, let’s get going. Who attended Kevin’s last chat or saw the transcript?  Basically, he was talking about getting students to practice, and why he insists on students practicing even if they are enjoying themselves without much practice.

Helen H (AUS)  I saw a transcript

Samali D (AUS)  Not me.

Gordon H (AUS)  He took the wind out of my sails somewhat, and I won’t go over his ground too much. If you don’t have the transcript, I’ll send it to you.  Of those who were there or read the transcript, who has questions or issues around that topic?

Helen H (AUS)  I’m interested in knowing what you do Gordon to get kids to practice, what requirements you have and what has been successful for you.

Sarah H (AUS)  We’re talking about Kevin’s chat, right?

Gordon H (AUS) Yes, Sarah, and he said pretty much what I would say about kids and practice, but he had some motivational ideas which I thought were great.  I can just add a few comments about the topic.

A lot of how you address this issue is to do with you and your studio, i.e how willing you are to lose a student.  I’ve been far more successful at getting students’ agreement to practice since I “let go” of them and felt nothing personal about them leaving.

Kerry V (AUS)  So letting go of their responsibility too?

Gordon H (AUS)  No. I mean, I can then be pretty straight to them and remind them that it’s entirely up to them whether they succeed with music.  If I’m worried about them leaving, I’m more likely to let them get away with not being responsible.

Sarah H (AUS)  I have always had a problem cause I feel like I am imposing MY will upon them, and whether MY way is right for everybody

Kerry V (AUS)  Do they then learn themselves to be responsible?

Gordon H (AUS)  I’m talking here about students who have an existing problem about practice, but it’s much better, of course, if the issue doesn’t come up in the first place.  I’ve also found since I’ve been better at letting go, that I can do the setup conversation more effectively.  Am I making sense?

Samali D (AUS)  Do you mean letting go of making an enrollment ?

Kerry V (AUS)  Yes, that makes sense.

Sarah H (AUS)  I know without a doubt that the students who practice consistently are much better students, and I enjoy teaching them more, but I must admit, I feel like a control freak sometimes.

Gordon H (AUS)  Samali , I mean it’s okay by me if the student leaves as a result of not practicing or being unwilling to practice to my satisfaction, although it doesn’t happen often at all.

Samali D (AUS)  So you let go of being attached to the outcome, and just do your job – be the best coach you can be.

Kerry V (AUS)  I still take it too personally when someone leaves, “What did I do wrong…..What could I have done to have avoided this”, etc. It may not have any thing to do with me but this is where I am at at the moment.

Gordon H (AUS)  So much of this issue, and your effectiveness with it, depends on your willingness to do what you have to do, and learning not to take it all personally.  Of course, if you lose a student, you’d always look at what you can do differently next time.

Sarah H (AUS)  Well , it’s their choice to leave, I know.

Gordon H (AUS)  but you also need to give yourself a break and see it as a learning experience.

Samali D (AUS)  Kerry I have found it useful in terms of the psychology of losing students, that there are many things you do and say that must be working, because there are students that you have that are staying, that do all the right things and make the progress.

Kerry V (AUS)  Yes Samali D, you are right. Thank you.

Sarah H (AUS)  But I feel so strict, like I am expecting perfection from my students, and in a perfect world, maybe, but we don’t live in a perfect world.

Gordon H (AUS)  I think the key word is responsibility on both sides.

Sarah H (AUS)  This has been an issue for me for a long time……….

Gordon H (AUS)  Sarah, how is your relationship with your students? How is your retention rate?

Sarah H (AUS)  some of my very close friends, whom I respect a lot believe I am too controlling with my students.  Retention rate is pretty good I believe. ….

Kerry V (AUS)  Are your friends your students too? Do they know what your expected outcome is for SM students?

Sarah H (AUS)  What do you mean by relationship with my students?

Gordon H (AUS)  Do you get on with them? do they like you?

Sarah H (AUS)  No I do not have friends as students, Kerry…I was discussing this issue with them.  Yes, I get on with them. They seem to really like me.

Gordon H (AUS)  Can you give an example of what drew your friends to this conclusion?

Sarah H (AUS)  I had a “fake ” conversation with my friend as if she was my student, and said,  “You have to practice, or I can no longer teach you”

Gordon H (AUS)  Well, remember that you have no history of a student-teacher relationship with your friend.

Sarah H (AUS)  I know.

Gordon H (AUS)  Your friends seem to hear that remark as a punishment or threat.

Sarah H (AUS)  yes, and maybe I said it that way because I had some built up resentment

Gordon H (AUS)  Perhaps it’s to do with the way you say it.

Sarah H (AUS)  yes, you’re probably right

Gordon H (AUS)  to me, a conversation like that comes from two things…  one, that the student isn’t making much progress, and two, that you don’t feel like teaching under those circumstances. Would this be right?

Sarah H (AUS)  yes

Gordon H (AUS)  So, there doesn’t need to be any anger, or being right or wrong, just the simple facts of the situation.  Also, so much is to do with the setup conversation.  Students get trained by you to know how seriously to take their lessons.  If you present yourself and the program like “Well, this is how it is” in a natural fashion, in your natural way of communicating, they get used to what’s expected pretty quickly.   Practice is as normal as everything else. To not practice would be strange.

You still need to reinforce the topic, but they get used to you constantly talking about it, checking what they’ve done etc.  Am I stating the too obvious?

Kerry V (AUS)  There are some though that I feel I am nagging to because they don’t practice regularly enough.

Sarah H (AUS)  no.  Gordon, that was good for me to hear

Samali D (AUS)  It seems that progress only occurs when both parties take responsibility for what is theirs to own.

Gordon H (AUS)  Kerry, Does it bother you to nag them?

Kerry V (AUS)  Yes in a way. I feel that we are not getting anywhere.

Gordon H (AUS)  You may have to remind them that it can’t go on too long like that.  You can say “to be honest, I get pretty frustrated with students who don’t practice. I have no issue saying to people that I’ll have to stop their lessons because of not practicing.  I really hate doing that, because I see how great they can be and how much fun they can have, but in the end, if you don’t practice, you’ll hate music, and I’d be prepared to lose you rather than have that happen”.

Now, all this heavy stuff doesn’t happen often for me these days, because in a subtle way it’s there in the background in all my conversations with them from the beginning…..

Samali D (AUS)  Gordon what’s the “it’s” in that last sentence? Do you mean their responsibility when they enroll with you?

Gordon H (AUS)  If you talk to students from the background of how much they can gain from taking responsibility, and how much YOU can gain if you take responsibility for the conversation.   The “it” is whatever is needed to achieve the desired outcome – being prepared to do whatever it takes.

It’s not easy to do (for me, that’s for sure) but the more you’re willing to do whatever it takes, the less it seems to be required.  The best tool you have, by the way, is the Curriculum Overview. It’s a brilliant aid.  Do you use it with your students?

Kerry V (AUS)  No

Sarah H (AUS)  Yes, but I felt some of them forgot it after a little while

Gordon H (AUS)  It’s essential for me as part of the setup conversation. Sarah, If they forget it, you can bring it out again. Make sure you use it at the beginning as a way of getting their agreement to maintain certain standards. Then you can just remind them of what they committed to.

Sarah H (AUS)  Yes, I would now, but I haven’t taken on any new students for a while.  Do you think it might be a good idea to get students to sign a contract?

Gordon H (AUS)  You mean a Minimum Practice Contract?

Sarah H (AUS)  Yes, something like that, with a list of their responsibilities as a student.

Gordon H (AUS)  I think the best kind of commitment is one where they look at you and say “sure, I will do that”… anything written could become an obligation rather than something they’re inspired to do.

Sarah H (AUS)  isn’t it the same with a verbal contract though? An obligation?

Gordon H (AUS)  Not if you’ve presented it as something that they’ll love to do.

Samali D (AUS)  Gordon, I feel overwhelmed at all the things I need to say in the set up conversation. I am beginning to see that so much needs to be covered to really set the scene for lessons.

Gordon H (AUS)  That’s true, but the setup conversation is also an ongoing thing.  You could reinforce the basics in lesson two, and then continue to reinforce lesson by lesson.  [Note: This chat took place prior to the inclusion of the Foundation Session in the first lesson]

Samali D (AUS)  What do you mean by the basics?

Gordon H (AUS)  Going through all the requirements as they are in your training, but you may not need to address them in detail…or you can handle details as the need arises.  eg with practice, looking for examples of the benefits of 15 minutes a day, most days each week.  Does this make sense?

Kerry V (AUS)  What about students that DO NOT mark their Playlist book? What do you do to get them to mark the pieces they have played over the week?

Samali D (AUS)  Yes it does make sense. ….It is helpful to think of the set up as an on going process. Thanks Gordon.

Gordon H (AUS)  Kerry, I look for holes in every play list. If there’s lots of holes, I get them to play lots of songs.  I say, “if you haven’t checked off your Play List, how do I know you’re playing your songs enough?”

Kerry V (AUS)  I say that but they still come up with excuses.  I have explained to them how it would help both of us to mark the books.

Gordon H (AUS)  Well, then that’s like the issue of not enough practice… You’d say “sorry, but we’ll just have to spend the lesson going through your old songs, coz I don’t know whether you’re playing them enough.

Kerry V (AUS)  OK, I’ll do that then. thanks.

Gordon H (AUS)  Do you feel you’ve got to the bottom of why they don’t?

Kerry V (AUS)  No.  They always seem to have some excuse and I try to give them ways as to what they can do so they do mark it.

Gordon H (AUS)  If they play the songs, the only reason I can think of that they wouldn’t mark them is if they have some resistance to the idea of doing it…they’re unwilling to be controlled.  They’re controlling things.

Kerry V (AUS)  How do I take back control?

Gordon H (AUS)  Well that’s a good chat topic for the future right there.   I had a bunch of tips and ideas I didn’t get to about getting the most out of practice.  And perhaps we can do that next time, but has this conversation been of value?

Sarah H (AUS)  yes, thankyou

Kerry V (AUS)  Yes, thankyou.

Helen H (AUS) Yes, thanks Gordon

Samali D (AUS)  Yes , thanks Gordon.

Gordon H (AUS)  if you have any questions, feel free to email me. Thanks everyone.