Circles of Fifths Name and Direction
Found in: Scale & Key Signature
Unmani M., Australia
Hello Circle of 5ths fans. This is a ‘naming’ thing I have mulled on for years since lessons with Gordon. He used to say (to me at least) it should be called the Circle of 5ths & 4ths because of course the 4ths go round the opposite way to the 5ths and do balance out the tonal centre. It is important to me because when introducing the circle to students I want to dignify it’s genius with the correct name. Thoughts?
Ian B., Pennsylvania
Similar to Neil’s model of the diatonic scale being a “pendulum”, I don’t really think of the circle of 5ths as distinct from 4ths. To me they are the same interval. One is an upward relationship and the other downward. If I play C and go up a 5th, I encounter G (Dominant). If I go down a 5th then I encounter F (sub dominant). They are both in relation to C by 5ths!
Mark M., New York
Agree with Ian. It’s all 5ths, just directions. And there’s also a drop more in favor of naming only for 5ths:
The 5th is, as Ian says, Dominant. The 4th is, as he says, Subdominant. The 4th is, in its way, subservient to the 5th. Right there in the naming of Dominant and Subdominant. And the subservience is true in an additional scientific way — acoustically, looking at the frequencies of the notes in the intervals, a 5th interval is in fact a simpler interval than a 4th, a (slightly) more consonant interval. This is, to me, a good additional reason to keep the labeling simpler and just call that circle the Circle of 5ths as opposed to having to call it 5ths and 4ths.
Ming Y., New Zealand
where is this discussion (Neil’s pendulum view of scale) found please?
Katie D., Australia
Ming Y. in Scale and Key
Robert R.
My students are pretty used to me calling it both the Circle of 5ths and the Circle of 4ths depending on what we are discussing. When talking about chord progressions for instance, songs tend to move counter clockwise (especially in Jazz). So I will say something like, “if we are moving around the Circle of 4ths…” and they know I mean moving counter clockwise.
Unmani M., Australia
Is the direction..counter versus clockwise for 5ths/4ths just a history, editing, convention thing? Or are there other reasons for the particular direction’. I’m asking because I have sheets I may need to change.
Katie D., Australia
Have you looked at the supplementary materials. “Scale and understanding key” I think Laurie and Gordon put it together.
Laurie Richards, Nebraska
Katie D. Thanks Katie! Yes Understanding Scale and Key – available in Supplemental Programs.
Terri P., Michigan
I know you are saying that fifths are going in One Direction and fourths and the other, but also those fourths are also fifths. A fifth down from C is F. A fifth up from C is G. There is no correct direction.
Mark M., New York
I always figured it was natural that C goes up a 5th to G, and clocks move clockwise when moving upward/forwards in time, and at least pianos have notes move up to the right. It all just seems to go together naturally.
Original discussion started April 21, 2026